The Burnside Blog

By third base on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 at 02:01PM PDT

undefeated softball team???? you wish.

By Mike Thelin on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 at 02:25PM PDT

Undefeated in spirit. We drink as hard as we play.

By third base on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 at 02:26PM PDT

yes, yes we do.

By third base on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 at 02:26PM PDT

yes, yes we do.

By Chuck on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 at 03:24PM PDT

This would be so cool, and you couldn’t ask for a better time. Portland’s music scene is thriving with many national and international acts. Seems like Rappaport is always ahead of the curve. I’ve been really impressed with the Works Partnership work I’ve seen. I wonder what else they have in store the neighborhood?

By SE Resident on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 at 05:22PM PDT

Wow! I can’t wait to see more renderings. This would be truly great for Portland. One problem though…where are all these concert goers expected to park?

By Eves on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 at 07:16PM PDT

The same place all those OMSI goers park.

By Rick on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 09:50AM PDT

In the OMSI parking lot?

By 5th Base on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 11:35AM PDT

The parking could work out perfectly, since the area is dead at night with no residents. Therefore, the streets are empty and available for parking. Also, no noise violation problems. Seems like a slow pitch home run.

By stewie on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 01:07PM PDT

First, I ask if there is really a need, what with all the downtown venues, and the rose garden and memorial coliseum…or is this just Randy’s need for publicity, and a place for the Flaming Lips to play, and to make cool hipster people actually like him, kinda like the “skateboarding” he does. Secondly, why should there be public financing??? I don’t want my dollars paying for Rappaports narcissism.

By Likewise on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 01:52PM PDT

Narcissism? Randy designs the best buildings in Portland.

By stewie on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 03:27PM PDT

I would agree that Randy has commissioned some nice projects, although he has only one completed project to date. The narcissism refers to to why he does what he does. Is it to make Portland better, or to make himself popular? Randy wants to be a “rock star”.

By Likewise on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 03:48PM PDT

Who cares if he’s narcissistic? Narcissism had long made for great architecture. Just look at Gaudi, Calatrava, Gehry. Personally, I don’t care what motivates him. The majority of developers are motivated by cash and cash alone. Look at the travesty that is South Waterfront. You think that was motivated by a love for Portland?

Let him be a rock star. What architect doesn’t want to be a rock star? Your attitude Stewie is very typical of Portland, which is to latch out at anyone who has ambition. I love how this town pretends not to have any pretension, but in reality, it’s one of the most pretentious places anywhere. That attitude is why nothing great ever happens here. There’s just too much jealousy.

By Mike Thelin on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 04:09PM PDT

Just to interject Likewise, Randy Rapaport doesn’t design buildings. He’s a developer who works with firms like Holst and now WPA. He’s often credited in the press or on the blogs as an architect or a designer. He definitely commissions great projects.

By Stewie on Thursday, July 31, 2008 at 11:02PM PDT

Likewise, I could name many architects who don’t want to be rockstars. The fact that you mention Guadi, Calatrava and Gehry, makes me think the only architects you know are ones on covers of magazines. Then again, I don’t care for most of the “architecture” of either calatrava or gehry. I’d much prefer a developer admit he does it for the money, then have one who pretends he does it for the greater good, and milk the publicity to make himself famous. It’s called honesty. To answer your first question…apparently I care if he’s narcissistic, then again I don’t care if you agree with me or not. And who mentioned South Waterfront?

By eric cantona on Friday, August 01, 2008 at 10:14AM PDT

did randy rapaport kick stewie’s kitty-cat? he seems to have acquired a rather sizeable chip on his hipster/modernist/flaming lips hating shoulders.

By Gadfly on Friday, August 01, 2008 at 10:18AM PDT

My sentiments echo eric’s. This guy could make a lot more money doing shitty developments and you’re knocking him for doing great developments? I think the statement that he’s only in it for the money is a tough, tough sell. If that were the case, he’d be proposing industrial facilities in Clark County, not waterfront rock clubs. Long live Rapaport! Let’s hope he has many projects left under his belt.

By eric cantona on Friday, August 01, 2008 at 11:02AM PDT

totally.

By PDXXX on Friday, August 01, 2008 at 11:24AM PDT

Portland is full of whiny hipster dumshits, why be surprised.

By Randy Rapaport on Friday, August 01, 2008 at 12:27PM PDT

Our proposal for this project is an intentional process:

Brad Malsin and I are proposing an architecturally significant venue for live performance, close-in on the east side. It will be a ground-up structure designed from the inside-out to respect all who have relationship with the project including the performers AND the audience. Our hope is to create an environment to elevate the quality of such experience.

Works Partnership Architecture is hoping to earn more than another AIA award in the “unbuilt” category…They have enough of those already. With community support and some luck we will succeed in this challenging proposal.

With regard to posters who pass judgement; It is true that I am lousy on a skateboard.

By stewie on Friday, August 01, 2008 at 01:31PM PDT

well, I don’t own a cat, so that never happened, plus I hate cats. I don’t believe either Eric or Gadfly actually read what I wrote. I never accused Randy of being “only in it for the money”. My point was actually quite the opposite. He’s in it for the fame. It amuses me that you read what you want to read into things. I think that’s where our differences lie. I also never wrote that I hated modernists or hipsters, but you are right I’m not a fan of the flaming lips. A little sophomoric for my tastes.

Mr Rapaport, welcome to the discussions, perhaps an answer to my initial question, why do you feel there should be public financing for this project?

By eric cantona on Saturday, August 02, 2008 at 12:14PM PDT

speaking only for myself, i would say three things:

1. i was addressing your comments in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion. lighten up. 2. your comments about public financing are relevant, and worthy of a response. 3. i now think you’re whiny-ass dipshit. stop being such a hater.

By stewie on Saturday, August 02, 2008 at 12:29PM PDT

wow eric that’s very impressive, way to add to the dialogue. Keep up the good work.

By stewie on Saturday, August 02, 2008 at 01:04PM PDT

Now if I could pose what were actually two questions in my original post again. Perhaps Mr. Rapaport or Mr. Maslin will return to respond, or perhaps Mr. Thelin can pose these questions to them.

“First, I ask if there is really a need, what with all the downtown venues, and the rose garden and memorial coliseum…” I would assume that the developers have done some type of market analysis that shows the city has a need for a venue of this type. Is this true? Are you willing to provide this analysis to the public?

“Secondly, why should there be public financing???” According to the wweek reports the developers are talking with mayor-elect Adams and are requesting public financing. What argument are they using? Is it intended for this request to be public or not? Should this be a “behind closed doors” discussion, and thus similar to the perception of a lot of the other development deals with the city.

I ask these questions not because of a dislike for Mr Rapaport, or Mr Maslin, or for WPA or for moderism or hipsters or the flaming lips, nor cats. I ask because, to date, there have been rumors with no real information. I ask because if the two developers that most of the community see as ‘thinking outside the box’ are willing they could make the info public and thus actually garner support. Not on blind faith but on actual facts. And possibly change the way things get done. Now that would make someone a rockstar. To be clear I have great respect for WPA, and their projects. This is not an attempt to say this project isn’t needed, it’s just a dialogue in an attempt to understand it more. Not just the design, but also the politics. I’m not worried about the design, as has been pointed out Randy has commissioned good projects, and Works is more than capable of designing this venue.

Now I know most developers are narcissists, and honestly I don’t really care what Randy’s intents are, my intent was to spark a dialogue. Unfortunately that’s the only portion of my first comment posters chose to respond to.

By Mike Thelin on Saturday, August 02, 2008 at 05:52PM PDT

I want people to freely express themselves, but let’s keep this forum respectable. I’m acquainted with most the people involved in this project, and I strongly believe they’re all worthy of our respect and admiration. Profanity and insults toward subjects and other forumers will not be tolerated.

I strongly believe that backers of any project that receives public funding should certainly defend how such a project will be a good use of said funds. However, as this project seems to be in such a preliminary stage, I believe we can only look forward to having that conversation in the future. For one, I haven’t seen any numbers other than the estimated $7 million it will take to build this club. Second, public assistance manifests itself in many ways.

In a general sense, it seems the city could do something to help the local music community. If there’s one are of the arts that Portland excels, it’s music and we do lack a large venue. I mean no disrespect to the McMenamin clan, but the Crystal Ballroom is a lousy place to see a show. Cities around the world spend many millions on large performing arts centers all the time. For Portland, it seems a rock venue might be a better fit. I can’t remember the last time I went to the Schnitzer, which by the way, is about to undergo its own multi-million dollar rehab.

I do love the idea of a showcase cultural amenity in the Central Eastside. There is momentum for change in that neighborhood, and it would be a shame if the same patterns of use that we’ve seen in the Pearl were recreated in our last remaining close-in industrial sanctuary. I love the Pearl, but I don’t believe that our city needs another Pearl District. Something like a rock venue does indeed make sense for the close-in Eastside, and it would have a ripple effect.

By Brooks Jordan on Saturday, August 02, 2008 at 07:46PM PDT

“First, I ask if there is really a need, what with all the downtown venues, and the rose garden and memorial coliseum…”

These two venues don’t reflect the music scene in Portland. It’s really as simple as that. They aren’t as good as the musicians and their music. They don’t carry the flavor, value, or the spirit of the music.

Yes, there are smaller venues that have that we-truly-get-the-music quality, but not a 2,000 seat house conceived and built by local talent.

Brad and Randy and Works are saying, in my view, can we build the artists something special – and something that expresses what Portland is and what its becoming – and make the numbers work? If so, let’s do it.

“Secondly, why should there be public financing???”

There could (not should) be some type of public financing because this is a project with a genuine civic component. And as Mike Thelin said above, public assistance comes in different forms.

One last thought. Randy is fun to rip on a little because he’s a developer (always a suspect group) and has a thing for indie rock and skateboards and publicity.

But get to know him. I think you’ll find that what he loves about being a developer, in addition to making a profit, is architecture and art. What he’s really into regarding indie rock is what’s behind the music. What he likes about skateboards is not letting age define you. And what he likes about publicity is raising the bar on what we talk about.

Yes, yes, you’re absolutely right, he misses the mark on all four of those things again and again (so do I on things I’m into). And if it was all about being a poseur, we’d be right to call him out and not support that kind of thing. But I can assure you, it’s not.

What if you or I really (truly) wanted to create a pubic space for music in Portland . . . for Portland? How would we do it? How would we keep it grounded financially, not impinge too much on the commons but also not be afraid to ask for support, get the fans involved, and build something for the ages?

I know I want to be involved.

By Randy Rapaport on Saturday, August 02, 2008 at 09:16PM PDT

What’s really behind this proposal is an intention to build a larger capacity theatre with a sound-system. acoustical architecture, and amenities that support everyones experience when they go to a show.

We want this to be built on the east-side, very close-in for economics and logistical accessibility. We have found just the spot right in the heart of Portland and very close to the east bank.

Details of the economic structure of the project are in the works. There are many public and private entities that may be interested in this such as the city, metro, pdc, and private equity and other creative forms of financing. We are going to explore all of these (if that’s alright with Stewie).

Most developers would not begin any discussions regarding development plans until they had the deal sealed or only if the process required such interaction. Mabye that’s another mistake on my part, but I am open to discussion and the support that may surface when folks realize that this is a real possibility.

By Old Friend of Three Friends on Sunday, August 03, 2008 at 08:49PM PDT

I don’t know much about Randy’s latest project, but it really bothers to see that someone would so unfairly attack such a sweet and creative man. I’ve known Randy as a customer and acquaintance for nearly a decade, and can attest that he does what he does because he truly wants to improve the city he loves. Rock on Randy, and thanks to Portland Spaces for writing about what could be a great project in the Central Eastside. Now if only someone would open a decent lunch spot down there.

By eric cantona on Monday, August 04, 2008 at 10:01AM PDT

my apologies to everyone for some of my previous comments. i got a little irritated. let me try to explain my motivation: we ‘ve had nearly eight years of a president that insinuates things, then when called on it says something to the effect of “i didn’t ACTUALLY say that”, when any intelligent person knows what he meant. that’s the tone i got from Stewie throughout. call me sensitive.

thanks to Mike for providing this forum, and thanks to Randy and his group for providing something more to their projects. i promise to behave in the future…

By stewie on Monday, August 04, 2008 at 02:51PM PDT

thanks to Brooks & Randy for their comments. It definitely helps provide some further insight into the discussion and the project. I guess I’m a little uncertain still where this projects lies in the development phase, as the wweek article said it was fully designed, but from Randy’s comments i’m lead to believe it is not very far along at all…

As for Eric, did you really compare me to GWB??? I never once backtracked in my commentary, I either called out what you chose NOT to read, or tried to correct your assumptions. It’s humorous how a liberal (and i’m assuming eric is a liberal, based on his love of cats, modernism, and hipsters) can be so offended by differing opinions. But then again I’m the whiny-ass dipshit. And a narcissist to boot.

BTW: what makes you all think I don’t know Randy?

By eric cantona on Monday, August 04, 2008 at 04:23PM PDT

Okay, I’ll bite. My comments have primarily been in relation to the following pieces of your commentary:

“or is this just Randy’s need for publicity, and a place for the Flaming Lips to play, and to make cool hipster people actually like him, kinda like the “skateboarding” he does.”

“Randy wants to be a “rock star””

“I’d much prefer a developer admit he does it for the money, then have one who pretends he does it for the greater good, and milk the publicity to make himself famous. It’s called honesty”

I would think that many would view that as attacking someone’s character. I personally don’t know Randy, but I respect his work in this community. We need more developers willing to try new and different things in this town. You may not agree with that and that’s your prerogative. Tell me why you disagree in a reasonable tone and I’ll happily respond in kind. Again, I apologize to you and everyone else for my previous posts, I got a little worked up.

Also: I compared your style of communication to GWB, not you. I don’t know you, so it’d be a little ridiculous for me to do so. Not to mention cruel. If you review my comments you’ll note that the only one of any real seriousness was about public financing and was essentially agreeing with yours.

Finally: I never professed a love of cats, modernism or hipsters.

By stewie on Monday, August 04, 2008 at 04:50PM PDT

Eric, thanks for playing… I think these will be my final comments. Yup I may have attacked Randy’s personal character, but I didn’t attack yours (although I like to think of it as questioning his character, rather than attacking). I also stated “I would agree that Randy has commissioned some nice projects, although he has only one completed project to date. The narcissism refers to to WHY he does what he does.”

Also, I very much do appreciate “developers willing to try new and different things in this town.” That doesn’t mean I can’t question some basic assumptions, or that I have to follow blindly. Although, I would question wether simply changing the style of the architecture, truly makes the development different… perhaps that’s another topic.

And to clarify, do you like cats or not??? If not we may have even more in common than we thought. Also, I do like Modernism, and most hipsters, I don’t just accept it without some thought or study of the issue at hand. As for GWB, we can probably both agree that McCain will be much better.

that was a joke.

good day.

By Saul sanders on Monday, August 04, 2008 at 08:17PM PDT

Now that everyone has had their say and the personal attacks appear to have quelled, let me just say that this would be awesome. Build the fucker.

By EdMan on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 at 12:04PM PDT

Why not use what we already have i.e., the Memorial Coliseum which is grossly underutilized and adored by many fans of modern architecture? It would seem that public financing of another venue like the one proposed, would give a green light to those who want to demolish the Coliseum. Not very sustainable, IMHO. Isn’t it possible to work with an existing structure and still achieve the sort of feelings, connections, style, and acoustic qualities that are so desired? Couldn’t the Colisuem be divvied up on its interior to house a smaller venue with better acoustics? Maybe the rest of the space could contain small studios or practice facilites – a music incubator – if you will. It would achieve the desired goals and help re-use something that we already built decades ago and is now going to waste.

By third base on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 at 02:49PM PDT

anyone see this “rock Box” project on the path website… seems like a very similar project. http://www.architecturepath.com/project.php?id=22

By Mike Thelin on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 at 02:56PM PDT

Edman: Thanks for the comments. Memorial Coliseum is WAY too big for this type of project. This highlights one of the problems with sports facilities. It’s very difficult to find a second-generation use. Plus I highly doubt that one could retrofit Memorial Coliseum into what you describe for the $7 million it would take to build a new project.